THE PRIMOGEN VOTE

[Aelius]

When a primogen vote is called, each primogen may cast one vote for every status they have excluding acknowledgement.

The votes are then tallied up with the winning side being the one with the most votes.

[grogwill]

I disagree with this rule.

[Kar Mauser]

I like the rule.

[Sebastian]

me too

[Aelius]

Not all primogen are equal, there are certainly primogen on the counsels of the world who are more influential on the counsel then the other members they share the table with. Hence I've decided to go this route... it adds a little more.

[Claudia]

Ditto to grogwill. Thumbs down on the rule.

[Mr. Ambrus]

50/50 on the rule initially, while some Primogen are more influential, I don't think Status should automatically add votes. Between boon trading, favor currying, blackmail and a host of other interactions that can sway votes (including occasional social challenge) in a meeting, it's one of those nice and simple mechanics that doesn't seem entirely necessary at all. Nice, but it's not adding anything, it's just pushing certain events from roleplaying to "the individual with the most traits automatically gets to do x" to a good extent. Not a good thing. Trait races are god awful, and it's no better with Status. Influential kindred have more means to influence as a given, be it resources, influence, kindred contacts, and more, adding status in like that seems far too arbitrary and powerful, and kinda dims the incentives of hobnobbing with -all- the primogen, rather than just the one or two with the most status every single time. Keep in mind how status already can impact Social tests, especially in matters relating to Camarilla politics, and in turn, convincing other Primogen etc. I think that it's already reflected in that respect, if your convincing a stubborn Counsel member, if you got more Status your already getting a social test bonus. Doubly so, socially retarded or politically ineffective Primogen who would be the underdogs regardless, mysteriously bypass their shortcomings getting their voice heard with some status mechanic. Big thumbs down as a result.

Status is already more than powerful enough (to the point of being ridiculously overbearing depending on it's treatment for players) without using it as some auto-vote mechanic to top it off. Keep in mind, anyone who bought their status with background dots by default, on top of being treated respectfully, is getting sided with more often and likely encountering less resistance for most Kindred activities, walks in, gets or takes the position, and boom, suddenly their a Primogen x2 for votes or similar, without any roleplaying on top of that. It doesn't lead to more roleplaying anymore than not using the mechanic (why bother, you got more votes no matter what?), but it does put the incentives towards just making a character with status each time walking in, or going into a status race for reasons that are only nebulously ic-justified for "just one more trait, so my vote can do x". When your dealing with something that social, mechanics are more a detriment than a boon imho.

Yeah yeah, I know, it sounds rather harsh on my end, but I have some bonifide concerns regarding how badly this can backfire when the mechanic isn't fixing a preexisting problem to begin with.

[Wolf]

I like the ruling. I think it gives a decent portrayal that those with more status are supposed to have more say in Camarilla affairs. The one vote apiece method though easier to manage is representative of a democratic system that the Primogen was never meant to be (in my opinion anyway). The Camarilla was built and is maintained by those with status telling those without how they should live and act. Why should the Primogen be any different? The system may seem unfair and weighted in the favor of those with status but that's how the Camarilla is. A group of low status primogen should not be able to just plow through a vote within the counsel chambers if the elders whom hold the status don't agree with it.

[Aelius]

1. Status can be used on any social challenge EXCEPT discipline ones. Let me ask you Tim, how often have you seen status be used in a social challenge... cause in over a decade playing this game I have seen it bid once... and that was in Winnipeg where they throw chops for everything.

2. Status is not a huge thing, in fact in most games its tossed aside as merely some number that a guy has and that you can readily ignore most times. In fact in most games it becomes "I believe who my friend is and I take my chums word over you who have twice his status. why? Oh because we're buds and have been for 20 years". Thats not the way the Camarilla works. If I have 6 status, and your friend has 1, well then hell, I should be able to make you kill him.

3. Primogen votes mostly come down to people expending status. So actually if you read it carefully enough this system is actually in place already. This is effectively the way that a primogen has to handle cancelling a prince decree, or stripping a prince's status. So in effect this rule was already there, it jsut wasn't expanded on.

4. I'm trying to revise status so that it is more useful. It currently isn't and never really has been.

[Charles De Luca]

I like the rule as well. I mean boons and favor currying would still come into effect, if primogen 1 has 4 status and primogen 2 has 6 status but owes let's say primogen 1 a major vote. That could be held over primogen 2's head very easily. Primogen 1 might mythically have 10 votes on a lot of issues while that major boon was held over primogen 2's head. So favor currying and back room dealing would play a huge part on how a primogen council operates.

"1. Status can be used on any social challenge EXCEPT discipline ones. Let me ask you Tim, how often have you seen status be used in a social challenge... cause in over a decade playing this game I have seen it bid once... and that was in Winnipeg where they throw chops for everything.

2. Status is not a huge thing, in fact in most games its tossed aside as merely some number that a guy has and that you can readily ignore most times. In fact in most games it becomes "I believe who my friend is and I take my chums word over you who have twice his status. why? Oh because we're buds and have been for 20 years". Thats not the way the Camarilla works. If I have 6 status, and your friend has 1, well then hell, I should be able to make you kill him.

3. Primogen votes mostly come down to people expending status. So actually if you read it carefully enough this system is actually in place already. This is effectively the way that a primogen has to handle cancelling a prince decree, or stripping a prince's status. So in effect this rule was already there, it jsut wasn't expanded on.

4. I'm trying to revise status so that it is more useful. It currently isn't and never really has been."

I pretty much also, Tim have to agree with all of Garth's points here except 2. If you become fast friends with someone incharacter especially over the time jumps that have been going on..., I think think publicly you would have to aquiese with whatever six status jerk was saying. Privatly I think if I were coterie mates with some guy a heavy status member was trying to kill I might give him the heads up and hope he left town. I mean status should I think cover your public perception of an individual. In public or Elysium you give that high status member as much respect as you can. I don't think status should cover someone's personal opinion of an individual. I may personally loath some status 5 member of the sect because I felt he got his status given to him by keeping his lips attached to the prince's ass. I probably would not go blurting that out in Elysium mind you. I actually in my 9 years of gaming never saw vampire/mage/changeling commoner status bid ONCE. If the ST makes it a bit more potent and gives it a game effect I have to agree. Especially when it comes to status on a primogen council where the more influential members have more votes. I guess what I am trying to say to make this babbling more sensible is this. I agree that status should play a larger part on how you a) influence the sect b) how others treat you during events like Elysium c) How much voice you should have in Camarilla politics d) NPC's first impression of you (Sabbat, Anarch and Camarilla the first two seeing bigger targets the last one how much initial respect they would be willing to grant) and so on...

-What it should not do is change someone's personal opinion of you. That should be develloped through side scenes, how well the PC's have worked together and so on.-

[Aelius]

I should have been more clear with point 2. I didn't mean that if you have more status then you must like me. Its totally the perception of how you are regarded within the Camarilla and not personal opinion. What I meant to say was that in the past I have seen lets say a Prince get two opinions from two different people about something. One has 5 status, the one has 1 but is IC buddies with the Prince. The Prince by all means can take the opinion of his buddy, but 'publicly' should totally go with the higher status member, or at least give him some sort of Kudos for his opinion. Siding with his lesser status buddy should in fact gain him the ire of the higher status member. Again, most of this depends on circumstance, as status is TOTALLY a public perception.

You have a Prince who invites two people over for dinner. Vampire A and Vampire B. Vampire A has 5 status, Vampire B has 1 status. It comes time to sit at the dinner table and Both A & B want to sit in the same chair. The Prince should give the seat to the higher status member Vampire A, regardless of what he thinks of Vampire B.

Status is what the "Camarilla thinks of you" and what everyone 'should' think of you in public.

[Mr. Ambrus]

Well I was playing a good part devil's advocate as well, going by things that crept to mind after the initial "hmm, this is a great idea, how could it be problematic?' train of thought. As I said, don't take it as a lynching, and you make some very good points. I've only maybe twice seen the status + social trait mechanic used in a very long time myself. This is not to say I think it's a useless mechanic, but it is, as presented in the initial material, something available and something that very well can be heavily exploited when the ball gets rolling. Less so something I've seen save rarely, and more so a potential that can really make a difference if and when used, big time. Heck, it's something I think should be used more often when appropriate, though it's still prone to similar issues I find with the status votes; why roleplay when you can make a social challenge + status? I dunno, I just don't see both necessary at the same time if the mechanics are both available *shrug*. People not using a preexisting mechanic that's always been around, well, its unfortunate, but if it's never used, why have it? Either people will start using it, or it's going to continue to get ignored. I'd rather see one part used in place of the other, but that's just my opinion.

On 2, I'm with you there. It's my general experience as well. Again, I think you and Black Finn have kinda hit the nail on the head though... the Camarilla doesn't work that way. If it doesn't work that way, it shouldn't be easily allowed to. So I can see how that adjustment works there in the games favor, though in part the problem with how it's typically been experienced is something that both the players and ST's need to address (both on why it gets so easily ignored without consequences, and how to promote it's use IC through roleplaying), not necessarily a rule mechanic alone, though I understand this is just the start of making status more useful and promote it's use, rather than have it conveniently ignored. It's the above issue though, I don't see a mechanic resolving an issue alone when it comes down to how players are treating the system, rather than the system itself.

Pretty much with you on 3 and 4 too in retrospect. I am curious what other adjustments or ideas may be in mind to expand on or alter the use of status outside the Primogen Vote, though. What can I say, I'm paranoid about the dreaded "trait race" though if overemphasis is put in certain areas. I can say in my time larping that it's the most common, consistent, and negatively game altering experience I've had one too many times, so my initial reaction to boosting up a trait to give automatic votes on top of other things kinda gets a bit of a knee-jerk critical reaction. Either way, hopefully my babble is at least somewhat constructive rather than just purely critical.

[Aelius]

My apologies if I came off like I thoguht it was a lynching. I was just trying to address the issues at hand.

As for other fixes, I'm not sure they will be rule mechanics. I was tempted to put in an NPC harpy who would then enforce the status of people but I'm not sure that's the answer. I'll most likely just use NPC's of the Camarilla to enforce how truly important status is and how it should be the end all in public social settings.

I concur with your statement about how rules added on usually jsut mar up the game, but I've actually altered a lot of rules in an attempt to make the game a little better. Hopefully it works out.

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